__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 34
(from 1/10/08 car ride conversation, talking about the Kalpoes)
P: And the other guys, have you seen them?
J: I've seen them both, yeah, but haven't talked to them.
P: Why not?
J: I've spoken bad about them, I want to stop.
P: Why?
J: Yeah, well they're just stupid, you know! They're just stupid, man! Not only this, they're just stupid. Why are you talking shit, why are you talking shit like that? What's the point? What the fuck are you doing saying the next day, that I was with that girl, that I was supposed to score with, and you are saying that you've fucked her.
P: But why did he say that? Is that true?
J: No! Let me put it this way, it's impossible. But anyhow, it's about... on what kind of level are you thinking, you know? What's it about?
P: They know nothing, right Joran?
J: No.
______________________________________________________________________________________
P 98
(From 1/13/08 car ride conversation, talking about tourist girls on Aruba)
J: It's just a hooker's nest
P: Man, and those chicks, those chicks are 18, 19 years old and they come the fuck to Aruba... Yes, to get totally drunk, to sniff coke, and to fuck all week long.
J: And to fuck!
P: You know, not one, no five or six different guys, they don't care!
J: Yes, that's why I always fucked these whores with a condom, Patrick!
____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 124
(From 1/13/08 car ride conversation)
P: Facts, man, facts. But did you screw her or what? That Natalee?
J: I didn'[t even fuck her, Patrick.
P: Didn't you even fuck her?
J: I had only been jacking off a bit, and touched her cunt a bit, and she touched my dick. I didn't even have....
P: But was she a bit nice, or what?
J: Yeah, she was quite nice. But I tell this you honestly, Patrick, I don't even believe she was a girl that was on drugs. Everything just says that here in the Netherlands, but hey, they only say that because it has been accepted, you know.
P: No, that's not true. She has been in a drugs clinic, hadn't she?
J: Yeah, look! That's again something that is just being said, and I have never seen this has been confirmed.
P: That's true, but there are girls that were together with her in that clinic and they have told so.
J: That is true, but I also have never seen any evidence of that. If they are starting to tell these things, then I can speculate about that as well.
P: Yeah. But I tell you as well, it's only hearsay, I don't know it either.
J: That is it, so much shit is being spread., you know? And people just take it as the truth, but that doesn't always mean that it is the truth.
P: Of course not. But sometimes it's all weird, you know?
J: Look Patrick, if people would know how strong my legal case is...
_______________________________________________________________________________________
P 125
J: Do you know what the message was? "Hey swa, thanks for the lift." That's the message.
P: But that's not what they showed.
J: What do you mean?
P: They showed something else. "I'm home now" or something.
J: Well, "Hey swa, thanks for the lift, I'm home." That's what I texted him in Papiamento.
P: No, no, no
J: I can show you, Patrick.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 129
J: Yes, and then he said... little bit of panic, you know: "Cono!" It was a bit late.
"Yeah, what are we going to do with her?"
"Yeah, all right, let's go to the police."
"No, no police!" He wanted to go to the police. "Ah fuck, yeah, well, ok.."
Then he called someone. I thought he had called for a boat. I said: "Yeah, okay." Then he said: "This is not possible. You have to go home." I said: "Why? I can't ask this of you, man."
"No man, go home now and I'll take care of the rest."
"Yeah"... and then I went home.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 131
P: But your father and mother don't know anything?
J: No.
P: Good for them, you know.
J: Yes.
P: Don't tell your brothers, right? Be careful.
J: But I treat my brothers very well.
P: But I don't think you should burden them with this secret.
J: One should never tell.
P: They are too young.
J: Yeah, but I also thought: "I can't do this to my family". I didn't do anything but...
P: It's too difficult.
J: Yeah, yeah, yeah... look, eventually, looking back... I'll honestly tell you... maybe I should have told.
P: But... yeah.
J: I couldn�t know it would become this big thing, but at that moment I thought: "My father, I can't... my father... no, that's family, he's a judge."
P: He's a judge.
J: I can't do that, he will lose his job. I really love my parents.
P: Of course, but everyone loves his parents, Joran!
J: I have problems with my parents, yeah, sometimes I talk to people, sometimes I fight with my dad, sometimes I fight with my brothers, but in the end you're family.
P: 100 percent. Family is family, man. Family only goes that far, you know.
J: Yes.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 175
(from 1/15/08 car ride conversation)
P: Where is that phone booth... near the Hyatt, or near the Marriott?
J: Every hotel has one.
P: Oh. In the hotel.
J: Each hotel has one.
P: Yeah, I know. Inside.
J: No, outside.
P: In the lobby?
J: No just outside. Near the swimming pool.
P: Okay.
J: They are everywhere... each hotel... it's not normal how many of these phone booths are out there.
P: No, no, no. Everywhere, I know, okay.
(...)
P: But one thing I don't understand.. Okay, she lies there and she's dead. That friend... I know this friend is your father. I know it, Joran.
J: No, no, no.
P: Why not? Why would somebody who picks you up tell you: �You have to go to school�. After you said that to me, I knew it.
J: No.
P: Look, Joran, and I've told you from the beginning. I've also talked about this with my girlfriend..you know. And I've told my girlfriend: "If people called me in that kind of situation, I would help them as well."
J: Me too, me too, me too! But I'm telling you Patrick, my father wouldn't, and that's the truth. I went to Aruba and there were little groups of guys with whom we hung out with. From when we were young, you know. And those guys, they still call me now and then... but they don't have that much money, they can't do much.
(...)
P: But what about your dad... when you got home, didn't he notice something about you?
J: My father was sleeping. Patrick, it was about 3:00 am or something like that... 4:00 am.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 177
J: But he doesn/t live on Aruba anymore. He's not on Aruba at the moment.
P: He lives in the Netherlands?
J: Yes.
P: That's only easier, man. You have to tell me. I want to see him.
J: Yes.
P: I want to know who he is. I don't have to talk to him about this, but if I see him, then I know if he will be able to use this against us.
J: Yeah, one would see that right away.
P: I can see that, you know. Then I can tell you how I feel. But I think it's dangerous for him to be walking around with this and certainly for later on, when there is a lot of money involved and he sees we've got lots of money, you know?
J: Yes.
P: I give him one chance and then he'll get a bullet.
J: Yeah, I agree with you, but...
P: But was he there then?
J: No, Patrick, of course not.
P: Oh.
J: Of course not, of course not. It all happened so quickly, so quickly.
(...)
J: In only 2.5 hours together you can't kill someone...
P: No, no, no.
J: ... kill and do something. Everyone knows that, that can't happen! Or you have to be a professional.. But, Patrick, I know him, I've lived on Aruba for 18 years. Well, you know...
P: Yeah, of course, you know people. But what you're asking of this person, Joran...
J: I didn't ask.
P: You didn't ask?
J: I didn't ask, Patrick.
P: He offered?
J: He offered.
P: Unbelievable.
J: He saw me there...
P: Yeah, all those emotions, devastated.
J: ... and he knew as well... I was going to the US and...
P: Yeah, he wanted to save you.
J: And he thought like...and he couldn't have known it would be this big. I've talked to him about this later on, Patrick. We've talked nights with a whiskey bottle.
P: And how old is he? About your age?
J: No, 25.
P: 25! But be careful. If they drink... I'll get that bastard. I want to see him, Joran. You've got to... I want to see him, yeah? I just want to see him once.
J: Once is okay.
P: Once I want to see him, you know, no more.
J: Yeah, that's okay.
P: Yeah? Call him, we'll go and see him tomorrow. I want to see him, just see him once, you know. You don't have to say anything. Just say: "Hey, a friend of mine from Arnhem... good friend... cool car... have fun. You know."
J: Yeah, I'll just tell him, let's have a drink, have lunch.
P: Yeah, right? Eat a bit, we'll have some dinner, talk a bit, you know.
J: No, he'll like that as well.
P: Yeah, he would?
J: Yeah.
P: Of course, man, we'll mention nothing, and we'll blow a bit and... it's cool. And when he's gone, then I'll talk to you and I'll give you my view about that boy, because I can read people, you know. I look at those people and how they act.
J: Yeah but he has, he has done a robbery once.
P: Yeah, but that's something different than this..
J: Yeah, of course.
P: You understand? And I don�t like it if people have something against you and they can use it.
J: No, ok. But yeah, I think he has shown that he would do that for me and then without talking... but do you know what's the most bizarre?
P: But they've never arrested him in that case?
J: It's so bizarre. Through anything, you know, all my friends. But hey, I played it very well in the beginning. Because in the beginning I thought, boy, I can tell them whatever they want, you know, because if they can't get evidence against me, heck...
P: Yeah, then it's like, then it's like...
J: ... they won't screw me.
P: No.
J: They can't do anything, and eventually they've got nothing. But hey, they even haven't questioned him. Of all my girlfriends, all my friends, everything! They�ve got files. They have questioned 15 girls! Exactly. The wanted to know in which positions I fucked them, Patrick! Can you imagine for those girls? Those girls even told me: "Joran, the police have guts", you know.
P: (laughs)
J: My father and my mother... my father reads these things as well, you know. My father is a lawyer as well. Cono, man.
P: Unbelievable isn't it?
J: They did everything, but this boy, it's just. really...
P: But,,,
J: I've really been lucky.
P: Yeah, but how far did he take her, man. He must have done a really good job, you know?
J: Yeah, but this boy knows how.
P: But how far has he... Does he sail often? He knows a lot about boats, he knows a lot about the ocean right?
J: Yeah, he's got his own sail licence thing.
P: That boy knows what he's doing then, yeah. Did he make her heavier to make her sink?
J: No, I don't think so.
P: You don't know?
J: No.
P: He never told you how he's done that?
J: Yeah, of course he did, he has.
P: How has he done that?
J: He just went into the ocean, far, and then he threw her in.
P: Just threw her off?
(Joran nods)
P: Like that?
(Joran nods)
P: Then you were really lucky, man.
J: Yeah.
P: I swear, you were really lucky.
J: I was.
P: Then you were really lucky. If he was that stupid that he's done it like that, you know? Then you've got a big guardian angel hanging over you.
J: I could sleep just fine you know, that night. I went home that night and I could just... I just..
P: But you really didn't hurt her, right, Joran?
J: Patrick, I swear.
P: The day I find out you hurt her I'll kill you, right!
J: Yeah, you'll kill me.
P: Then I could live with it as well, you know.
J: Patrick, then you will kill me. Patrick, you should see me with girls. I'm so sweet as can be!
P: No, I don't know you, I don't believe that, that you fuck her and that you fuck her in the ass.
J: Of course, of course.
P: Okay, but I do that as well. 100%.
J: 100%.
P: And slap her on the behind, well, she sure can get that!
J: Yeah.
P: And pull the hair a bit, that can be done as well, you know.
J: Yeah. I would never hurt a girl! Before... when I see a guy... hitting a fucking girl... then I'll get that guy..
P: Then he'll get two... yeah, I agree.
J: What do you think?
P: Then he can get some as well right?
J: Yeah.
P: Because that doesn't even have to be your own girlfriend.
J: Then I, I don't even have to know her.
P: Once in a while I do see, you know, then I see those guys being so awful towards their bitch.
J: You can't do that!
P: No, man. But you can speak up, but then you'll get a mouth full of that bitch even.
J: Yeah.
P: You know?
J: Yeah, do you understand that thing of me, Patrick? It's very difficult for me as well.
P: But Joran, I know for sure, it must be a relief you're able to tell your story.
J: Oh Patrick, you have no idea how I felt yesterday.
P: And I;ll tell you, I've given your story a place, man. And the first time you wanted to tell me. I knew I wanted you to but I couldn't place it yet. Now the case is done, yeah, it's also more easy for me. But I don't want you to go on television anymore, Joran.
J: I won't do that anymore.
P: I don't want you to do that..
J: No, we're done with that.
P: It's not good for you, you know?
J: Yeah, I only did it because I got 5000 Euro for it.
P: Yeah, of course, easy money. Money is money, man.
(...)
P: But I want to, I want to meet that guy, you have to call him, and tomorrow we�ll all ride up there, man.
J: Okay.
P: We'll take William with us, we'll make it a nice day, you know. Then he'll say, oh fun... fight, you know!
J: I can call him now.
P: Yeah... just call him, make an appointment with him for tomorrow, we'll go there, man.
J: I don't have his number in this phone, I've got it in the old phone.
P: Okay, all right. That's no problem, right?
J: I'll give him a call tonight.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
P 188
J: They had fucking... what they eventually had... what they came up with during questioning... that cono Satish had been with his girlfriend or something like that. After that they talked shit for two days... two days on the same day talked, and his girlfriend is supposed to be in Suriname.
P: Mmm
J: And the police even went to Suriname to talk to his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said he was very nervous.
P: The day after?
J: The day after yes. Really nervous, and that he had said something terrible had happened. Okay, that was supposed to be some new evidence, but what the fuck, that could mean anything, you know, so what are you talking about?
P: Maybe he lost 1500 dollars gambling, then he would be nervous as well.
J: Exactly! Exactly!
P: Yeah.
J: Then you wouldn't be able to sleep as well too. No, and the other thing was from his little brother. In his chats that asshole Deepak said he had sex with that girl. But I think, to be honest, that he said that to brag to the person he was chatting too, you know. Yeah, and that he said something like "We went out and I fucked her." That kind of shit on MSN. That's why I don't fuck around on MSN anymore. Nothing, yeah, they can trace every conversation.
P: Everything kid, it's in the air, that's going nowhere, man.
J: No, but nothing against me, Patrick, no taped conversations, they came with nothing.
P: But what kind of influence have those statements on you then, nothing right?
J: They've got nothing, according to our statements I was the last one to be with that girl.
P: If he states he fucked her, that's good then, right?
J: But yeah, exactly yeah... apparently that's also not sufficient evidence. They were fucking around a lot. And that Dutch research team, they got the best detectives coming from Holland; who�ve worked on cold case files and stuff like that. Those people were sick, Patrick. They came with a chat from my brother with his old girlfriend; also called Natalee. Cono, man, using that against me.
P: Why?
J: Yeah, he tells that girl: "Yeah, my brother lies a lot. Imagine if he's involved or something." They want to use that as evidence against me. Also to make you feel bad, like your family is saying this and that. And my brother said himself: "You know how I talk, I'm joking a lot and stuff."
P: Well, weird!
J: They're crazy, Patrick! But I was only laughing.. I didn't say cono, Patrick! No cono! I came there, okay, and I didn't even say: "I want to use my right to stay silent." I just looked that officer straight in his eyes, I just sat there the whole time, not one word came out of my mouth. Not going to the police station from the KIA, nothing.
P: But they've put limitations on you from the beginning?
J: Everything, Patrick.
P: Everything, no phone calls, not allowed to do anything, huh.
J: Can�t read a book, nothing. I got a bible.
P: Yeah, but you do read it , right? (laughs)
J: Yeah, you've got nothing to do, man. You're going...
P: Killing time there, huh?
J: ... doing a bit of push-ups.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Page 204
(about wine-throwing incident on Pauw & Witteman program)
One of Jorans younger brothers was incredibly shocked by what Joran had done. This brother yelled at Joran and said he never wanted to talk to him again and ran off with tears of rage in his eyes. Neither of the parents went after the younger brother. They stayed to comfort Joran.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 226-230
P: But I think it's bothersome he didn't make her heavier or something like that. I would... make a cannister around her, with weights. You know what a cannister is, right?
J: Something like a barrel?
P: Yeah, but made of wire netting.
J: Yeah, okay, made of netting.
P: And with one hole. Then they can get in but can't get out, right. That's what I would make.
J: Yeah, but Patrick, that current in that ocean is also cono mama, that bitch will go... Do you know how big that ocean is?
P: Oh my god, Joran, I know how big that ocean is.
J: Yeah, and after 3 years, what, what, what....
P: No, Joran, Joran, Joran, she won't be coming back. Yeah, she really won't be coming back ever.
J: No.
P: And if she was was back, then she would have come back in the first week, yes?
J: Yeah, she won't be coming back ever.
P: No, she won't come back ever, you know. Only she and God know where she is. Other than that, truly nobody else. And those bones, after 3 years in the ocean, salt... perished! You see those stones, right?
J: Yeah.
P: All smooth! What do you think happens to bone?
J: It wears down, yeah, of course, you're right, you're right!
P: You know those stones, right? All smooth, that's because of the currents, you know, because the sand is rubbing on it. .
I try to figure out once more, in another manner, what the involvement of the father is:
P: But your father, being a judge, I know... your father he doesn't want to know.
J: No, of course not.
P: He doesn't want to know. You're his son. I know for sure that he must have said once: "Joran, whether it's like that or not, I don't want to know."
J: No, he didn't even say that!
P: No?
J: No. Not even that.
P: But what did he say then?
J: Yeah, but Patrick, I even lied to my lawyer and my parents.
We started chatting about his first lawyer on Aruba, who has a legal office with his dad, and how he wasn't impressed with him. Joran called him stupid twice. His lawyer was taped with a hidden camera on the first show of Peter R. de Vries in 2006. On camera, he admitted to de Vries that his conscience had made him pay a visit to the head prosecutor at the time, and tell her that Joran had said he had something to confess. According to Joran this was bullshit:
J: Do you know what happened, Patrick? In one of those hearings, I thought, what the fuck, man, this cop was driving me crazy. I wanted to smack in his head, right. I said then: "I�m not going to anything anymore until I can see my family and my friends for a bit and can get my visits. I wasn't allowed to have visitors then, you know.
P: I heard, yeah.
J: "Well, we'll see what we can do. Will you make a statement then?" Then I told them: "Yeah, then I'll make a statement." I wanted to go see them and then I would... "Goddamn, this is my statement!" That's what I wanted to say.
P: (laughs)
J: Cono. And then my lawyer came to talk to me. I told him: "I want to talk to my dad, you know." I've also arranged for a phone in prison, Patrick. I don't know if I told you that?
P: Yeah, no, you told me, you know. But how the fuck did you get that phone?
J: My father brought it in for me. What do you think?
P: Your father? But I thought your father didn't have contact with you?
J: Yeah, he had then... at that moment he did, during that time I had visitors everyday, Patrick!
P: Yeah, from your mother, not your father.
J: And my father, what do you think they...
P: From the beginning?
J: What do you think, man, no not from the beginning�but after the second week or so.
P: Yeah, they didn't exactly stop your dad, did they?
J: No, of course not, what can they do about my father? They can't do that. What can one do? If my father wants to make it worse he'll just say: "I'm Joran's lawyer" and then he can always sit with me.
P: Yeah, yeah, so what the fuck do you want? What? Want to stop me?
J: Yeah, but for his name my father wants... that he can... he said he wanted to do that more than anything. But hey...
P: But you had talked to him before already, right?
J: No, no.
P: No, but if they would have told him after two weeks: "You can't come in," he'll say: "Wait", then they'll be screwed.
J: No, but they've told him that and they�ve made things impossible for him for two weeks. Buy hey, then the judge said...
P: You're goring to let him in, or he�ll be Joran's lawyer and he�ll be allowed to see you.
J: Yeah, exactly.
P: And then he got you that phone?
J: Yeah, of course. I came in there, Patrick. Listen, I just got in that KIA, you know. And everyone treated me great. I got coke, chips and everything. So I didn't have to eat that awful food. And then one of the guys said to me: "You're getting visits every day now, can't you arrange a phone?" I said: "I don't know, I can do my best." Then he said like: "This is how you do that, you get a fucking small phone allright? And then you put a tape around it, and then during the visit..." Because I got my visits in a room alone, Patrick. Because they didn't want me having visits with everybody else. So I go there; to my mother and father. How the fuck am I going to tell my mother and father, you know?
P: Yeah.
J: Like "Get me a phone"... and all that stuff. So I tell them: "Dad, I need stuff here as well. I feel really miserable here. I don't know, I want to be able to smoke here as well. want to do my stuff and I won't be able to get through it here if I don't get that stuff."
P: No.
J: "But I also need one little thing here, I need a phone." Then he said: "Yeah, but I can't do that." Then I told him "No, I really need that. because otherwise I'll get into trouble here, you know. Because otherwise people might beat me up in here, or do all those things. If I arrange this I'm with that guy who arranges everything for everybody; then I'm with him."
(...)
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Page 214
(from 1/13 car ride conversation)
P: Joran, we need someone, yeah. We're going to Enschede on Wednesday, then I'll show you the building. We need someone.
J: All right, but where can we get them, how can we get them the easiest?
P: You need to start using the capacities you have, yeah.
J: Yeah, but that's what I always do. That�s what I do with those bitches. Those bitches are crazy. I mean, I tell them stuff, they don't want anything, they're just horny, they just want to fuck. All of them! I drive them crazy and then I just use them to fuck.
P: 1000%, yeah.
J: I use them all. The only thing I want is to fuck, fuck you. I'm not going to talk to you. I talk sweet but....I 'll talk to you... but only so I can fuck you.
It's over now. He can relax and focus on making money. Joran trusts me 100%, he says. I've given it a place, I tell him. And again the story comes up of the man I killed. It comes so quickly that I would even believe it, so why wouldn't he?
SMS text of Joran, from a day later in the afternoon: "I want to be you :p you do know that right!"
________________________________________________________________________________________
P 231
P: I'm on your side, all right? I want to protect you, protect me, protect everything. And that's why I want to meet this boy, Joran.
J: Yeah.
P: Joran, 20,000 Euros is nothing for me. And if I think it's needed... well, let it be.
J: But I think you'll agree with me it won't be necessary, and that we'll...
P: I don't know, I'm not judging. I just want to be around that boy for a day.. Talk with him for a day, see what he says, how he acts and then I'll give you my opinon of him. But my opinion isn't final. Yours is important as well. Together we'll make that decision.
J: Yeah, he's never really comfortable anymore around me.
P: Yeah, but that's the problem, Joran. I'm afraid it's a problem, you know? But I'm telling you Joran, I have a wife and kids, Joran. I will bleed for you, Joran. Think Joran, think about this really well! And I know you won't talk, and I'll be teaching you in the meantime. Yeah, I'll make sure you're on holiday and I'll be off and then it'll happen. Yeah, it will happen. I know. When you're talking like that about him I'm getting a bad feeling about this boy. But we'll see, okay? And if I think it's the safest way. It'll have to happen, man. I can't help it. Whatever he might have done for you.
J: Yeah.
P: But more important things are about to happen. And you shouldn't feel to uncomfortable about it... really Joran, really.
J: I've thought about it myself a little bit, but hey, what do you want?
P: No, no, no, but that's why, it's my time now. My time has come.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 239
P: How long has he been here?
J: He's been here a year, Patrick.
P: Oh, he's just here?
J: Yeah, but he's got businesses, Patrick. He's got some things... he flies from Holland to Aruba and he's got a few people...
P: Who work for him?
J: ... who work for him, and all. And he's got... Recently in the US..that woman that worked for him was arrested as well.
P: With what?
J: With coke.
P: Ah... boy oh boy.
J: Yeah, so he freaked out, but he said that woman won't talk... he said she won't blab about him.
P: Oh, because that was his as well.
J: Well, I'm not certain if that was his. At least he was involved somehow.
P: Ok ok..but I don't need to know that, I'm not interested in that, you know. But was he a stud... oh ..he's not here for college then right?
J: No, not for college.
P: No. What kind of business does he have on Aruba then?
J: No company, he just...
P: Oh, he has no company... .just does his thing over there.
J: ... just his things and he's not someone with a lot of money, you know? But he's making his own and you can trust his word, Patrick, you'll see!
P: Okay.
J: When you meet him; you'll see.
P: Yeah, yeah.
J: He's someone, when he says he'll do something he'll do it.
P: No, I believe that.
J: Look, if he wanted to talk about me, Patrick... I've thought about that as well, if he wanted to talk, he would have done that.
P: No, he can' t talk.
J: He can't. He will screw himself.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 240-251
P: Tell me exactly, okay. Carlos 'n Charlie's. You left there with her with those two or..?
J: I went there... okay, this is how it happened. I was at the casino, okay? I went and sat at the blackjack table. Bit of blackjack, a little big money. There are a lot of girls at that table. I'm flirting with them, talk a bit with them, smooth. Then they tell me... We perfected this, Patrick. We made up a whole story of "We come from the Netherlands, also on holiday here." We had perfected that playershit for those girls, you know? Because when you say: "I'm not a local", then they immediately only want to fuck, you know? They know, that's how they play it: go high-roller a bit. Those bitches are going crazy there, Patrick, you know this. They will, they can't do anything. So yeah those bitches just ask me: "Will you go out with us tonight? Will you go to Carlos 'n Charlie's, that bar, tonight?" And I said, "Yeah, that's fine." They'd already been drinking the entire time.
P: Oh, wait a minute...
J: They were drinking the entire time. And I also know something about those girls... they were also taking cocaine. Because I know Boeti on Aruba and he told me. They went to him and got it there, you know?
P: Yeah.
J: That's possible, I know that for sure. So yeah, I was like: "No, I have to go to school the next day." And the girl says: "Please." I was like, oooooh... I know she wants to fuck, I just know it for sure.
P: Which girl?
J: Her name was... a friend of that Natalee. Not even Natalee herself, you know. And I get there, right? So I first call a friend of mine. A really good friend of mine, Jaime. I know it.
P: Yeah.
J: He never would have left me alone there... it would have been the two of us with that girl. Then it would...
P: Yeah.
J: ... but maybe it's a good thing it happened that way. And then... I called that Deepak and that Satish. They also got that care, you know? Then I say to those girls: "Ok, I'll meet you at Carlos 'n Charlies." And I get there and see this big group of hot bitches. And I see this good looking chick, and I start talking to her. I did not even fall for that Natalee, Patrick. So I talk to her, and she said to me. "No, no, no, you know what? That girl has shotgun on you."
P: (laughs)
J: I was like: "Shotgun on me?"
"Yeah, go and dance with her.'
So I walk over to the bar. They were already talking about me. And that girl was like "Come dance with me!" And I was like "No, I'm not coming on that stage to dance with you. Come down here. We'll talk for a bit. I'm going to have a drink with Deepak and Satish." So I went and had a drink with them, got a drink at the bar there. And then she just came down. From that bar, came to me, she came...
P: Who?
J: Natalee. "Come take a jelly shot off me." So the whore jumped on the bar, and wanted me to take a jelly shot out of her belly button. So I did. And then she says, "So now you have to buy me a drink." So I was like: "What you want."
"Well", she said, "what's good?"
"We'll both get a shot of Bacardi 151."
P: Yeah.
J: She was like: "Okay, that's fine." So a shot of Bacardi 151. She takes that. I see it. Right away..bam. 151-proof, Patrick. 75% alcohol.
P: Yeah.
J: And she asks for a chaser. I still had a yard in my hand, a long drink. She takes that. She drank a bit, and yeah, I see: she's drunk, Patrick! She's really drunk. But I know... I just thought I'll just take the girl with me for a little while. I'm going to fuck! And then I said: "Okay, so what do you want to do? Do you want to go to your hotel?" I thought: I'm just going to that hotel with her. That's best.
P: Yeah, of course man. Relaxed there, right?
J: She says: "No, no, no, I don't want to go to my own hotel." And then I told her: "Okay, what do you wan to do then?" She tells me: "I want to see sharks." I'm not bullshitting you, Patrick.
P: No, Joran. Look, you know, I've said it many times, huh? You've told me everything.
J: Some people are weird, Patrick.
P: Okay.
J: She said: "I want to see sharks, I want to see sharks." I was like: "What are you talking about?" Then she tells me this: That her mother is the sister of Hitler.
P: Unbelievable.
J: Okay, then she tells me about those boys of... then she asks me: "Are those boys your slaves? Are those your drivers?" That's what she's telling me.
P: (laughs)
J: I was like: Damn. That bitch is from Alabama.
P: Arkansas, right? Alabama.
J: No, even worse, that's slavery there. Was there. Those people don't like black people that much, you know? That's the truth.
P: Yeah.
J: So yeah... I was with her and then I told the guys: "Yeah, cono, I want to go somewhere alone with her, but she doesn't want to go back to her hotel." I also want to do what she wants.
P: Yeah.
J: That's also how it should be done. So I say: "Drop us off at the beach and then I'll fuck her, afterwards I'll take her to the hotel."
P: Yeah.
J: So yeah, they dropped me off at the beach.
P: Where then? Near those things?
J: At that corner.
P: What corner? Near the Marriott?
J: At the Marriott. Between the Marriott and the Fisherman's Huts.
P: Okay.
J: There is a road there. They drop me off. So I get out and walk with her to the beach. I'm kissing her and stuff, but she doesn't look so hot, you know?
P: Ah.
J: Cono! And she was rather pale. But she wanted it. She really wanted it!
P: Yeah.
J: So I'm... I'm kissing her and I'm fingering her... she had her hand in my pants and so on. And yeah! All of a sudden, Patrick. (Makes repeated convulsing motion with shoulders) No idea what she was doing.
P: Shaking?
J: Yeah, man, all of sudden. I was like, cono! What the fuck is this, you know?
P: And then what? What did you do?
J: Yeah, I was talking with her, talking, talking and... she's not saying anything, she's not saying anything, she's not saying anything. So I get her...
P: But how long was she shaking like that then? Do you know what that is?
J: Yeah, I don't know Patrick.
P: That's an epileptic attack or something like that, man.
J: I don't know, Patrick, I don't know.
P: But she was shaking... was there foam coming out of her mouth?
J: No, no foam coming out of her mouth. Not that I saw.
P: Okay.
J: And then, I'm freaking out, you know? I'm thinking: Cono, The next I have to... nobody even knows I'm out of the house. I just left the house. So I�m thinking like, what do I do, what do I do? And look, there are few people I trust, and this is a boy... I've also have something on him which could� .for which I also... for which he kind of...
P: Owes you this or something?
J: No, no, no, I can't say that. I can't say that someone owes me something like this. That's too much. But I told him: "I've got a problem, and will you come?" And I know that if he came and would have said: "I'm not going to help you. You have to deal with it yourself", then he wouldn't have talked.
P: Yes.
J: Maybe he would have, but I don't know. But anyhow...
P: Okay. Yeah.
J: I also know, I know what kind of person this is.
P: Ok. And that's that... what's that boy's name?
J: Daury.
P: Okay, man.
J: I talked to him and tell him like: "I've really... Something happened, something bad."
P: But where did you talk to him?
J: I talked to him with the phone. From that pay phone there.
P: From where?
J: From the Marriott hotel.
P: And where is that booth? In the lobby?
J: No, it's just outside; near the pool.
P: Unbelievable man.
J: I sit there all the time, I go there all the time.
P: And then you just left her lying there?
J: Then... Well, listen to this, I have... you have these dwarfy things... what do you call those? You've got those...
P: Those huts. You've got those boats.
J: Yeah, but you've also got those plant things.
P: Those mangrove kind of things?
J: Yes, that's what I mean. So yeah, I got her and put her a bit near those mangroves. And I told him: "I'm sitting here. You have to come over here." And he lives alone. He does not like that shit. Sometimes he has a bitch. He fucks them, but he lives alone.
P: Yeah, yeah.
J: Always. That's the way it should be he says.
P: Yeah.
J: So then he came there and he told me: "Joran, what have you done man?" She looks sweet, you know?
P: She's just lying there?
J: She's just lying there. She not doing anything. So he says: "Yeah, what happened?" I said: "I don't know man. I think she had too much to drink."
P: But did you not try to resuscitate her?
J: Of course, Patrick, I tried everything, man. I tried to shake her, I was shaking her, I was shaking that bitch like "What's wrong with you?" I almost wanted to cry. "Why does this shit have to happen to me?"
P: Of course, man, of course.
(Conversation is interrupted for a moment after Joran's phone rings)
P: And he was there?
J: He was there, yeah.
P: And how late was this?
J: 2:00... 2:30... 2:00.
P: Unbelievable, man!
J: And he tells me: "This is a big problem." And he has his own boat on Aruba you know.
P: Okay.
J: He works as a private owner for one of those people... what do you call it? With those banana boats, those tubes...
P: Oh... what's it called? That, that, that...
J: Yes.
P: ..funboats or something like that. Where you can sit on a banana all together?
J: And he has his own boat, but he works for one of those people on the beach.
P: Or when he has a group? Then he hands over some money?
J: That is sort of his cover work, you know?
P: Okay. That's good! You've got to make some money, right?
J: Yeah, he's got to do something.
P: That's good. He's not stupid.
J: No, he isn't dumb. He was sitting there and he said, "Joran, you know I would do a lot for you, but this is going to be a huge problem." He said, "No matter what, you will be blamed for this." And I said: "Yeah, I don't know, I don�t know what I should do. I can't go to the police, I can't... all of this. How can we solve this?" Then he was like, yeah, his boat is right there�near the pier. I knew that too.
P: Yes.
J: And then he said to me: "Well, help me out for a moment."
P: Yes.
J: And then we just brought her to that boat.
P: Lifted?
J: Yeah, quickly; the two of us. And he...
P: But nobody saw you then?
J: Nobody was there.
P: Because it's near the Marriott, those boats there... right?
J: But there is nobody. Nobody is paying attention late at night. It's dark.
P: Yeah, nobody's walking there at night, kid.
J: Yeah, even if you walk there then they would still think: they're playing around or something like that.
P: Yeah, and if you lift her they would think: that bitch is drunk or whatever.
J: They're not paying attention. And he told me like... What did he tell me? When I was there he said like: "Yeah, you have to go to school tomorrow and those things because if a girl is missing then... "
P: He's clever, Joran, this man. I want to meet him. He's clever. He will become one of the three of us, okay? He's clever, I already hear it. This man is a genius! That's why I'm telling you: it's your dad because I... Look, I'm the teacher, right? When you told me: "You have to go to school the next day." I could only think it was your father. And I wouldn't have worried about your father, you know? But this man, he'll become one of us, Joran. Yeah? This man has got something, yes?
J: Yeah, he has'
P: I'm telling you: he's got something. That he thought of that at that moment has been crucial for everything. Yeah? For everything, you know! Very clever of him to say: "You have to go to school."
J: Yeah.
P: Okay, fine. Then?
J: With these things as well. Yeah, you're completely right. I have to keep doing normal stuff. And I added: "I'll go to the casino tomorrow night. So I'll be on camera and stuff."
P: Okay, fine.
J: Okay, so I went home.
P: How did you get home then?
J: I just walked, man. What do you think? He had to take care of that stuff.
P: How far is that then?
J: About 15 minutes.
P: Oh.
J: And that shoe story is just bullshit, Patrick, you know?
P: Yeah I know. Does he have the shoes?
J: No, we just threw away those shoes. I threw them away on the way there.
P: Just threw got them off and threw them away.
J: No, you've got those little wells there.
P: You just put them in a little well?
J: Just put them in a little well.
P: From a drain or something?
J: Yes.
(Joran's phone rings and he talks with a friend about his house hunting for a while)
P: Okay, but you're walking home and he sails right out.
J: He sails right out.
P: But he...
J: What he told me is.., I don't think he even went 2 kilometres or something. He told me, he took the boat, went far and he just disposed of her over the side and then came back, put his boat over there, and he then came to my place.
P: Yeah? At night?
J: Yeah. That's it! Then I've talked to him for a little while and then he told me like "Yeah, it's all good. She's just going to be missing. They will look but they will know nothing. Maybe they will come to you." And then I said: "Yeah, you know what, we have to talk this through."
P: Yeah.
J: Because I am... we were both a bit nervous of course. It's quite something. It's not a little thing, you know?
P: No.
J: We're both just... We had as well... We had done stuff before together. We did. Look, that/s why! I knew that if I had to call someone I had to call him.
P: Yeah.
J: And that he would do that for me.
P: Yeah.
J: But he, I, I, I... at that moment it was like..it had to be good when the police would come to me for the disappearance. They had seen me leave Carlos 'n Charlies with that girl. Those boys only know they dropped me off, they don't know anything else.
P: That Deepak and Satish?
J: Those are stupid guys, Patrick. They're not even worth it, you know?
P: But they dropped you off and now nothing else?
J: How, how, how... cono, mama I am... had to be to make him say that... to make them say, that they dropped her at the hotel, huh?
P: Yeah.
J: That confused everything as well. .
P: Yeah, of course, of course.
J: That confused everything. But I told him: "Yeah, but okay, if the police come... that Deepak and Satish have dropped me off at the beach. So I have to talk to them as well."
P: Yeah.
J: Then they said: "Yeah, that's true."
P: But you never told those two anything, right?
J: Never, never, never.
P: Look, that's why I'm telling you, you're further then I was then, you know? You've handled that very clever. By telling them "look guys, she's missing. I don't know where she is. Let's just say we dropped her off there."
J: That's what I've said.
P: Okay, that's why I'm telling you, you're a player. A big one, man! You're smart. Yeah?
J: Yeah, but it had to happen, Patrick, it had to happen!
P: I know, but you did good. Better than I could have done at your age, man. I tell you: shit happens.
J: Yes.
P: You know? Shit happens in life, man.
J: You have to solve it best way you can.
P: Yeah, one way or the other.
J: It�s just, yeah now, still... looking back, you know? I couldn't have known that it... shit... that it would get that much media attention.
P: No, you were a bit unlucky with that, that it became such a fucking huge media hype, you know?
J: But now I can take advantage of that as well.
P: Yeah?
J: Patrick, there is a bitch'a bitch from MSN. They're crazy, you know? Do you know what she told me? I'm talking for 5 minutes with this girl, right?
P: Mmm.
J: Okay, she lives in... God damn it man, I don't even remember. Who cares. I'll go there someday. Who gives a shit. She tells me like: "I want to hang out with you sometime." I'm like: "Yeah, we'll do that. We'll go out sometime. Have a drink. That's fine."
P: Yes.
J: I say: "Take some of your girlfriends with you." She says: "Yeah, I've been on Aruba before, you know? I know what it's like there." And I know... She says: "But when you come, we will go and rent a hotel room right?" She's just telling me this, Patrick! I was like: "Of course we'll rent a room." What do you think, man!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
P 252
(from 1/16/08 car ride conversation)
"Look, I would never mention his name. That's the problem, you know, people telling names. They will talk to those people. They will talk to them" says Joran, who is pointing out what the police would do. "They will connect them with other people again. They know nothing. What they've got, they've got, and what they don't have, they don't have. That's how it works."
I realize immediately there is no point in checking "Daury Davens". Joran is telling me all of this to give an subtle apology for making up the name. And in his eyes I would be the first to understand this code.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 272
(from 1/29/08 car ride conversation)
I ask him why he got rid of his shoes. "That only makes things more complicated."
"But I thought that something like that would make the whole thing more believable. I know, it's stupid, but in the end I did get a kick out of it," Joran clarifies.
P: The only thing I believe is that there is something with these shoes that you don't want people to see.
J: No, of course not. I still have these shoes. I just told the boys that I left the shoes behind. So stupid... so stupid!
P: Yeah, that was really stupid, man! But I just don't get it, you know. The penny doesn't drop. Why would someone do a thing like that? And how I try to think this through about why I would do such a thing, what do I want to achieve with that? That only provokes more attention. And even if I'd done such a thing, I would have never told them.
J: No, but look, that's exactly it. It was just a load of bullshit with the police. That thing had emerged then. I even put on the same K-Swiss shoes when I was with the police... during the interrogations I put them on the table. And then these were size 14 and I had told them that I have size 12, you know. Exactly the same shoes... exactly the same...I put on the table.
P: Oh. (laughs)
J: Bam! In front of the detectives. Then during the interrogations, Patrick, then I told him: "Yes, those shoes were just like these." Just to screw with them for a moment, you know? Then he said: "Take off your shoes!" And this is all on camera, you know? Three cameras were there in that room.
And then I said: 'I'm not going to take off my shoes." And my lawyer was sitting in a corner at the back, but I wasn't allowed to talk to him.
He said: 'Take your shoes off or I'll take them off for you." And he doesn't say a thing, you know.
So I said: "What's this?"
So that cop: "Yeah, take off your shoes or I'll take them off for you".
So I went: All right; he's showing off, he's showing off, I'll take off my shoes, I'll take off my shoes. Wham! I slam the shoes on the table there. I was like: "Take a good look at my shoes if yoiu want to." ___________________________________________________________________________________________
Page 274
(from 1/29 car ride conversation)
During this ride Joran claims that the distance from the beach to his house is no more then 10 to 15 minutes walking. When I question this, he offers to walk it together sometime. Well, I won�t try with him, but there will be plenty of people who will check this personally; from Fisherman�s Huts to the old police station near Firmin�s bar.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 276
J: Yeah. That indeed has been a pity, Patrick.
P: Yeah. This makes it all more complicated you know?
J: Yes. Of course I never knew the full story, you know?
P: What do you mean, never knew the full story?
J: Yeah, of course I knew everything that happened, but hey... of course I can't talk about that. You can't do that. You can't put those other people at risk.
P: What other people? I thought there was only one, wasn't it?
J: Yes... Daury. I don't want to get him in trouble.
P: And your father knows it as well, man.
J: My father knows absolutely nothing. My father has...he knows nothing about this. He doesn't know a thing about the whole event. That's the worst thing of all. That man would die, he wouldn't be able to cope with this. He couldn't even harm a fly. My father is weak.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
P 279
(from 1/29/08 car ride conversation)
P: But why did you say that about these boys?
J: Say what?
P: That they picked you up? What was your thought behind that?
J: Yeah, I did shut my mouth already after the second week, I just didn't tell the police anything anymore.
P: Yeah, but until now you said that they picked you up, don't you? Not to me, but to them?
J: Yes, no, this is just as the case stands today, I just kept my mouth shut. After that I didn't state anything anymore and at a certain moment I decided: Okay, it's now in my best interest to really not say a word anymore.
P: That I understand.
J: Yes.
P: But why did you say at that moment: "They picked me up?"
J: Because...
P: What did you intend to achieve with that? You did know that... Look, you, I just ask myself why you said something like that, since it only makes things more complicated for yourself, man. Since they will say: "No, it isn't true!"
J: Yes, but what else should I have said?
P: Yes.
J: Nothing, maybe better...
P: Better to say nothing in that case!
J: That's what I'm saying.
P: Or better, say: "I walked home". Who is going to confirm that, or who is going to deny that?
J: Yes, nobody could have confirmed or denied that. Yes, that's why it probably was the best. But hey, at that moment, I did say that it happened, so I cannot just change that again.
P: No, I understand that, but I'm trying to understand the logic. So, you tell me now: "I should have said I walked."
J: Yes, but I also did some thinking in my prison cell in the evening and I also thought: "What are these dickheads going to say."
P: Dickheads!? Yeah, but these dickheads are going to say that it isn't true.
J: Yeah, right.
P: You could be sure of that
J: But yes, what I already told you. I was...
P: You were young, boy? You were much ahead of me, stop it man.
J: No, but what you have to consider is, I was home very quickly and I had been on the computer.
P: You arrived home quickly by walking, Joran?
J: Yes.
P: Joran, come on, man, I'm from Aruba, man.
J: Patrick...
P: I know where you live, man... you can't do that in 15 minutes. What did you... run?
J: Yeah, of course, why... otherwise I would talk shit, they've checked my phone, I've called nobody else. The boys, Deepak and Satish, are the only ones I called.
P: Yeah, but you walked to the pay phone, you could have called a third person from the pay phone.
J: Yeah, but I didn't do that. The less people the better.
P: That I understand.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
P 280
�No thank God my father doesn't know anything, really. I don't think that man would be able to live with that. He believes 100% that...
I interrupt Joran and ask him if his father ever had doubts.
J: Never, never, never, and neither did my mother.
"Yeah, they're really special people" I tell him, but Joran doesn't even hear me. He's in his own world all of a sudden.
J: But there is no one, no one I've ever known to be more honest than my dad.
P: Ow.
J: But my mother, my mother can lie.
P: But anyone can lie, man.
J: Yeah, ok, but my father can't. That's why, that man should have been a judge.
P: Yeah, I feel really bad for him, you know.
J: That man is really, like I said he would never hurt a fly. He really believes in justice, you know.
P: No, but that... look that's what they do? This is their passion.
J: Yeah, but what my father said: If he would ever think that, that I knew something, or knew more, then he would be the first to drop me off at the police.
P: Yeah, but you know, I'm going to give you a fact. That if your father can't lie, then you lie. Why? He brought you that phone didn't he? This is a bad joke...
J: What did you say?
P: I said, a bad joke. He brought you that phone.
J: Yeah okay, but he didn't lie about that.
P: He never mentioned it either.
J: I think if you would have asked him, he would have said so.
P: If they would have asked him he would have said so? That can't be, Joran. Then he would lose his license, man.
J: Yeah, No, then he will say that he did it for me.
P: No, he can't, you know.
J: He will, really! My father can't lie, Patrick. I even had to tell him how to do it.
P: You know, I... Joran...
J: Step by step. And then he still forgets credit for the phone.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
P 284
(from 1/16/08 car ride conversation)
P: Just dumping the body there, Joran... just throwing that girl overboard only a few hundred meters from Aruba, and she doesn't wash ashore, is to my knowledge extremely remarkable.
J: Yes.
P: Then there should have been something that caught her or whatever. I tell you, there are many fish out there, you know?
J: Sharks
P: Oh my God, guy!
J: Yes.
P. These are huge, boy!
J: Yeah. I saw them. I have them...I also have my diving license.
P: What a fish. I used to with my dad, you know? He had a wire, a long line, and euh...those green fish, like this, with that green head. And my father fighting, you know? And at a certain moment, with a boat nearby, you just see them swim and suddenly, in one go, another fish arrives, bam...chop...line quiet. Only the head is stuck on it.
J: That is sick!
P: That's why I tell you, those animals are...that fish is really huge, man, you know? It has such a head, man...
J. That is sick!
P: ...and the rest is entirely gone.
J: That is sick!
P: You know? So...yeah.
J: You know it.
P: You got lucky, you know. Those two aspects for you are... are terrific, you know? That she didn't wash ashore and that they didn't get Daury.
J: Not even interrogated, not once.
________________________________________________________________________________________